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I have this sinking feeling that Microsoft is going to stop support and progress on EM is that possibe Anita.
I have this sinking feeling that Microsoft is going to stop support and progress on EM is that possibe Anita.
- Meaning no offense Ihave this feeling Microsoft is going to give up on EM, I would hope they would let us know, Its been a long time sense the last update as we had to roll beck the last service pack. Anita you would know is that possible? Right now for large catologs its still to buggy for me, yes it could just be me. Its seems I am always messing with it to stop updating or to update that I have not got around to really using it. I use it for viewing files and mild searches, which if everything is working runs great. It has lots of potential, if it is going forward.
Risposte
- Hi Rancher,
I don't have anything I can share with you about future plans right now. However, Microsoft is committed to supporting Expression Media.
Regards,
Anita Oakley- Contrassegnato come rispostaAnita OakleyMSFT, Moderatoremartedì 26 maggio 2009 17.42
Tutte le risposte
- Hi Rancher,
I don't have anything I can share with you about future plans right now. However, Microsoft is committed to supporting Expression Media.
Regards,
Anita Oakley- Contrassegnato come rispostaAnita OakleyMSFT, Moderatoremartedì 26 maggio 2009 17.42
- Thanks for the response Anita. , CC
- Committed, yet are unable to fix the extreme slowness after catalogs seem to reach about 800MB. Get towards 1GB and forgetaboutit. I've been waiting for over a year with nothing but silence.
I timeline or somthing would be appreciated. If there isn't even a timeline yet for these serious problems to be fixed then we need to abandon ship. I hope that's not why they are staying quiet. I love this program, but the catalog limit is crippling to the extreme and is unusable right now. I don't even use the software anymore while I wait for an upgrade. It's pointlessly slow. - Amazon has a few books that you can pre-order about Expression Web 3. These are due in November. As Expression Web and Expression Media are part of the Expression Suite I would hazard a guess that the next version is due September / October - books about software tend to come out a month or so after the actual release date as they are written based on Alpha versions of the software and need last minute revisions to cover any changes in the final release, before they are printed and distributed.
I await v3 with trepidation. It will be about then that my main catalogue will reach the 128,000 image limit. It is the make or break release for Expression Media as if it doesn't finally address the key concerns of the user base there will be a lot of them looking for alternatives.
Ian
I sort of have the same feel. I like the usability of EM a lot. I don't like the slowness and quirks.
I await v3 with trepidation. It will be about then that my main catalogue will reach the 128,000 image limit. It is the make or break release for Expression Media as if it doesn't finally address the key concerns of the user base there will be a lot of them looking for alternatives.
Ian
chrisOh boy! just as I was about to try the waters and settle on EM I have to come here and read this. I've been going in circles trying out the various DAM programs available, EM was the most intuitive to use for me. I can put up with bugs and hiccups, they usually get fixed in the long run, but if there are going to be serious unresolved problems then I may have to go to plan B.
What to do. . what to do. . oh my!
Ray
Yes, the catalog size limits are a show stopper. It is impossible to maintain a catalog with more than a few thousand images unless you restrict yourself to creating small thumbs and small, low quality previews. If you want high quality decent size previews and high quality thumbs your catalogs are restricted to less than 3000 images. In order to get anywhere near the 128,000 advertised image limit you cannot create any previews and must use small thumbs.
In my catalog I am using small (800) medium quality previews (which are unacceptably small and low quality) and medium size (240) high quality thumbs. With only 19,000 images I am about to hit the 1.8GB catalog size limit. I have many more images to catalog but I simply gave up and stopped using EM because I refuse to split my images into several catalogs and I refuse to restrict the size or quality of my thumbs or previews any further. I feel cheated because MSFT did not make these catalog size limits much more clear before I bought the program. If I knew that I could only fit a few thousand images in a catalog with large, high quality thumbs and previews I would not have purchased EM.
By the way if you choose not to create previews, you can fit many more images in the catalog but you loose speed. EM2 is very fast browsing its own previews but slow to pathetically slow browsing actual media that must be rendered on the fly.
Here are the specifics regarding the catalog size limits:
http://social.expression.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/media/thread/aa48460b-46a9-45f3-927f-000f20627393/
Regards
Bill WoodI was just considering moving from Adobe PhotoShop Elements 7's Organizer (PSE.) It is buggy, unreliable, and extremely slow.
I am concerned about:
- The preceding comments about the long-term survival of Expression Media.
- Whether Expression Media can import and use the tags from PSE's Organizer. There is no way we will be able to again spend years creating tags for our more than 40,000 photos.
So, it seems we need an official committment from Microsoft.
I need to know if there is any way to import and use (or convert to a useable format) our tags.
Rodney L. WrightAs Expression Web and Expression Media are part of the Expression Suite I would hazard a guess that the next version is due September / October
Ok then, if I were to purchase V2 and V3 did appear in the supposed time frame, would there be a grace period where new purchasers of V2 would get a free upgrade to V3. Several of my other programs do this.
Ian
If not, as I'm running out of days with my trial I may as well wait for the launch date.
Ray- Speaking about MSFT's commitment to support its software consider that they recently announced the cancellation of Money after 18 years. Thousands of customers rely on Money to maintain their financial records after having invested 5, 10, 15 or more years in the program. Critical, invaluable information is contained in those Money files.
Incredibly, MSFT has doomed those customers to aggravation and uncertainty because the software will expire on 1/31/2011, only 1.5 years from now. Users will no longer be able to install the program after the expiration date because MSFT refuses to grant "activation" rights into the future. Thus, as soon as a customer's hard drive or computer fails or they need to upgrade their hardware after the expiration date they can no longer use Money. At this time there is no competing software that is even capable of importing data from a complex Money file. Customers have no where to go to duplicate Money's features and can only worry and hope that some solution appears before the deadline imposed my MSFT.
In addition, I read in the article below that MSFT has already killed 13 other programs in the last 8 months and may cancel more in their effort to reduce costs:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133769
If MSFT can pull the rug out from under its loyal Money customers who truly depend on that software to manage their financial affairs, then it would be a snap for MSFT to drop EM2 which merely catalogs pictures.
Regards,
Bill Wood - Any confirmation that EM3 will support larger catalogs and be much more responisve when working with large catalogs? I'm waiting in limbo for EM3 or to look elsewhere...
- Since so much research has gone into the catalog file size issue, could someone please explain the differences between the settings. Thumbnails size and quality is self explanatory (how do you set yours to 240 which isn't in my menu choices) - but what does the Use built in thumbnails(if available) do. I convert CR2 to DNG in Bridge before I import. And, what does the variable setting do? How do both of these relate to catalog size?
I personally don't use the Previews at all because they make the catalog grow to large, and since my files are quite large, they make the media window so slow that I can't use it. So, right now I do all focus checking, rating, keywording etc in Bridge before I import, and then only use the catalog to add any extra keywords sync annotations, and open files in PS. A change in the allowable catalog file size would be extremely important and so would faster media window play times.
Thanks
Jonathan Since so much research has gone into the catalog file size issue, could someone please explain the differences between the settings. Thumbnails size and quality is self explanatory (how do you set yours to 240 which isn't in my menu choices) - but what does the Use built in thumbnails(if available) do. I convert CR2 to DNG in Bridge before I import. And, what does the variable setting do? How do both of these relate to catalog size?
I personally don't use the Previews at all because they make the catalog grow to large, and since my files are quite large, they make the media window so slow that I can't use it. So, right now I do all focus checking, rating, keywording etc in Bridge before I import, and then only use the catalog to add any extra keywords sync annotations, and open files in PS. A change in the allowable catalog file size would be extremely important and so would faster media window play times.
Thanks
Jonathan
Set thumbs to variable in Edit/Thumbs&Previews, then check 240 in the drop down + symbol on the upper right of the thumb screen before importing.
"Use built in thumbs" tells EM2 to use the embedded thumbs in your images if any. Usually embedded thumbs are low quality and not desirable. I let EM2 build its own thumbs during import, they are much nicer and run fast.
What size JPG previews do you create, if any, when you convert to DNG? Full size previews are big and slow to load in EM2, medium size previews are very low quality and still not fast. You might try not converting to DNG. Import your CR2s into EM2 and set EM2 to display the embedded previews that are in your CR2s, they are decent size, very good quality and quite fast to load. Don't use the Media view, it is too slow.
EM2 runs best if you let it generate its own previews during import. It can browse its own full size high quality previews rocket fast and the EM2 previews are very good. Trouble is you can only fit a couple thousand images in a catalog. Ridiculous of course. But I bet you will be happy using the embedded previews in your CR2s.
If MSFT does not eliminate the current catalog size limits soon I believe that the product will die. Like you I cannot use EM2 for focus check, rating, etc because I cannot get large high quality previews that I can browse fast and still fit all of my pictures in one catalog. EM2 is just too slow browsing actual media. And there is no way I will split my images up into a series of tiny catalogs. As of now I just don't use EM2 and I am holding on only for a while to see what MSFT does.
Regards
Bill Wood
- Proposto come rispostaWarren_B lunedì 22 giugno 2009 17.39
- Aw man, this is bullsh*t. Expression Suite is no longer shipping with Expression Media and there's no EM3 release coming in the near future (if ever).
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/06/expression-media-ripped-out-of-microsoft-expression-studio.ars
Looks like we may be taking one up the rear with this crappy software. How many countless hours did I spent importing into EM only to have it run as slow as a snail (useless actually)? And now no upgrade in sight. The software was AWESOME and exactly what I needed when evaluating, but after loading it up with thousands of images it turned to pure garbage.
I'm pretty pissed. And no communication from MS at all on this subject. - "Microsoft says that there is currently no version 3 to announce for Expression Media."
Well, I guess that's it then, I have three days left on my trial, I may as well move on and find something else. I'm not commiting to a long term relationship with a program that has such an uncertain future.
My wife and I started out raw, untested and in beta mode. Along the way we had bugs and crashes, some major and some minor. We did upgrades and had some new releases, which came with their own buggy wares, but we stuck it out and after 36 years I can say that we run smoothly and bug free.
THAT's what I want from my software, not necessarily the 36 year part though :)
Ray- ModificatoRay-R martedì 23 giugno 2009 2.25
- MSFT is stinking to new lows. This is the second time in one month that they drilled me. Cancelled MS Money on 6/10/2009 stranding thousands of long time users with no real alternative and now the announcement that EM2 will be left out of the upgrade cycle. As far as I am concerned MSFT is not to be trusted. I bought EM2 based on assurances by Anita that MSFT was working hard to eliminate the catalog size limits, now it is apparent that I am stuck with a dud program that cannot handle the modest image collection of an amateur photographer let alone the needs of a professional. It is telling that virtually no one from MSFT has posted to this forum recently. Instead of openess and candor from MSFT, we hear about this blow to EM2 from a fellow user. Time to look elsewhere.
Regards
Bill Wood Bill,
Sounds like you're having a "glass half-empty" kind of day. I prefer "glass half-full"!
You may be right in that this is the beginning of the end, but I read things differently.
The Expression Suite v3 is supposed to be released in a month or so, which is sooner than I expected. Yes they are removing Expression Media from this, but there are several logical reasons for this.
Firstly, maybe the development we've all clamoured for is taking longer than expected so rather than release something half-baked they are taking the correct decision to hold fire and get it right.
Second is that a large percentage of Media users are on Macs. For them the rest of the Expression Suite is of no use i.e. they would always have bought the stand-alone version of Media. Having an application that is cross platform raises plenty of issues - it increase the effort required for development and testing. They could kill off the MAC side of things but that would probably kill enough of the revenue stream from Media to make killing the whole thing more viable. Cynically you could suggest that Windows users who want Expression Web and Expression Media will have to cough up more for the privilege.
Thirdly there is a new edition of the DAM Book just out. This advocates Expression Web as part of the workflow. I would be surprised if the author would do this if he was aware of any potential issues regarding the future of the software. However circumstances do change.
Lastly be wary of over-relying on a single piece of equipment in your work. It does have a habit of becoming the weak link in the chain. A few years ago on holiday my camera broke. I was nearly 12,000 miles from home on the other side of the world from my spare camera body, so had to find a camera shop to buy a new body - an expensive 'mistake'. Like you I run Microsoft Money. It was on my PC when I bought it 5+ years ago and it still works. Never needed to upgrade as it does all I need. However the data it holds is more important to me than the application so not only do I back up the Money file I also export the data to Excel and save that, meaning I'm not 100% stuck if I do encounter a problem. It's a good thing I don't drive a GM car…It's the same with Expression Media. It's just a tool to manage the data you already have. Yes it can do more than that but for my workflow - and this is personal - it offers no more to me than iView Media Pro did. In fact on XP it offers less, but is better on Vista. The important thing for me is that my data is also held in my images, so I could migrate to another tool. I would be disappointed if it was canned, but it won't suddenly stop working overnight.
I agree that Microsoft are poor at communications - it does seem that the bigger the company is the worse they are at this.
Ian- Hi Ian,
Well, I ain't too happy with MSFT these days but I don't think I am spinning the facts at all. The unfortunate truth is that EM is languishing under MSFT ownership for whatever reasons. The program is so bad in its present form that I cannot commit to use it and the extended delay in addressing its major shortcomings demonstrates that MSFT does not place a high priority on it. That, of course, is their right but since I cannot depend on MSFT to produce a solution within a reasonable time and I need software now, I am going elsewhere.
The issue with Money is different. Money is a terrific program, by far my most important software. But with Money, MSFT has displayed such a lack of regard for loyal customer interests that they cannot be trusted at all. MSFT not only dropped Money, they intend to make it impossible for users of the current version (Money Plus) to continue to use the program at all after 1/2011 by witholding activation. So as soon as a hard drive failure or other computer problem or hardware upgrade becomes necessary Money Plus cannot even be installed on new hardware. That is evil. Folks will be forced to switch programs no matter how painful the process. Many folks have long years invested in Money and their files contain huge amounts of valuable data that cannot be transferred to other programs. As of now there is no alternate program that is capable of importing a large complex Money file. And there is no alternate program that equals Money's features. Preserving the data via backups or export to Excel is not the issue. Users need a program that can import all their data and duplicate Money's analysis features - but there is not any such software and it is not likely that there will be by MSFT's deadline or thereafter. I have temporarily protected myself by exporting all of my data and importing it back into an older version of Money that is not subject to MSFT's activation blocking scheme. But that process cost me a week of hard work and it will continue to be a struggle to maintain that legacy program going forward as computer hardware and operating systems advance. The mere fact that MSFT is capable of treating loyal customers like that does not give me the confidence to look at the EM cup as half full.
There are software companies that treat customers well. Take a look at Camera Bits' PhotoMechanic, they have the world's best photo browsing and metadata editing software and are working on a catalog solution - that's where I will be.
Regards,
Bill Wood - Hello Bill,
I work a lot with EM and I like it. When you say "the program is so bad in its present form" I would disagree but I would like to know what doesn't work for you
Sigi Hello Bill,
I work a lot with EM and I like it. When you say "the program is so bad in its present form" I would disagree but I would like to know what doesn't work for you
Sigi
Hi Sigi,
It's quite simple for me. The top 2 features that I require in DAM software are the ability to hold all of my pictures in one catalog (I don't want any size limit and the catalog must still be fast with 250k images) and I must be able to browse the catalog using high quality decent size previews that come up fast.
EM2 catalogs can only hold about 3,000 images if I generate high quality decent sized thumbs and high quality decent size previews. That tiny catalog size is totally ridiculous and makes the software useless to me. The program is way too slow browsing actual media (full size JPGS or full size embedded DNG previews or RAWs) so I need EM2's own large high quality previews which are excellent and can be browsed rocket fast.
I did create a test catalog with 240 size high quality thumbs and 800 size medium quality previews but that catalog will only hold about 20k images, also ridiculously small. Plus I cannot stand the 800 size, medium quality previews. I am using a 21" monitor and the 800 size previews are ridiculously small on that screen and the image quality is so poor that I cannot evaluate the images. The program's speed performance is excellent with those settings (240High, 800Med) but the small size and image quality issues make it unusable.
So the alternatives are:
1) split up images into small catalogs. I absolutely refuse to do that.
2) give up previews and browse thumbs or actual media. I refuse to do that either because the program is too slow browsing actual media and I cannot evaluate my images using only thumbs.
I suppose a third alternative is to give up image evaluation (use a second program to evaluate and tag images) and simply use EM2 to find images using thumbs and keywords. That is a possibility though the little I did experiment with EM2, I was unable to fully understand the odd behavior of hierarchical keywords which I also regard as an essential feature of DAM software.
How do you use the program? Maybe I am missing a usable approach.
Regards
Bill Wood- Hello Bill,
I do not have that many pictures as you and I am ok with splitting the catalog - although I do not like it. I look at them at medium quality. What makes it easier to have several catalogs is the fact that - as long as all the catalogs are in one folder - I can search accross all catalogs for a specific file.
Sigi - I am on a PC using Windows XP Pro and I find this is not working for me in its present form sense the search does not work vey well through-out the folder of 9 catatogs, almost not at all. I have not gone through and catalogs files using EM as I have little faith in its actual use value versas time input. It is just to quirky for large files of catalogs period I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the day MS solves this issue. I have 1 terabyte of Photos but I made sure they where within the gig range. Its great for viewing once you get them to there proper catalog. Probaly be a good DAM for smaller catalogs. CC
- I wonder if the long term plan is to use SharePoint 2010 as a Digital Asset Management solution and extend Expression products to call into SharePoint via Web Services? Just a thought.
- Hi Bill,
I can tell you that Lightroom starts to struggle with 12000 images in one catalogue and you would hate browsing the thumbnails as they are fuzzy when scrolling and take a while to render when you stop scrolling (makes my head bad).
I really do not have the problems you do, even without previews I can browse images at one every second and can even veiw my ORF raw files at 100% magnifacation at the same speed, multiple catalogues is not a problem for me.
As to the hierachical keywording EM2's is the only that works correctly for me and makes keywording twice as fast as it is in lightroom, the grass may always seem greener on the otherside but the reality when you get there is usally a lot different than you imagined. - What's funny is I have this 5 year old FREE image gallery software that came with some clip art package that is LIGHTNING quick. I can add thousands of HIGH res images to it and it's instantaneous for keyword searches and displaying thumbnials. It doesn't have many options but in reality it's far better than most of these other programs I've used. It creates some catalog files and builds them with set thumbnail and preview size (no option to change). The catalogs can be 100mb for say 10,000 images...but it's fricking quick and ALL that I need. I don't care about doing editing, rotating, resizing, viewing large screen or any of that ____. I just want to be able to FIND the photo I want, do some basic organization of my library and that's it!
Why can't modern and supported software work as well as something free and 5 years old from some clip-art program? Seiously, what's the hold up? Anita
I am using MSE2 on upgraded computer with great success. I separate catalogues by recommendations of MSE2 user guide and have very functional uits to work with. I routinely have catalogues of over 10,000 large photos and maxed at 1.8 gigs
Hope MSE2 will continue and flourish. Much more robust than lightroom and designed by an information management not graphics design limited company. This will be key as it is the archiving and searches that are essential at this point in the management of massive photo archives.
Hope you continue the support; it is invaluable to my efforts.
ThanksHi Rancher,
I don't have anything I can share with you about future plans right now. However, Microsoft is committed to supporting Expression Media.
Regards,
Anita Oakley
Unfortunately, Anita, I can't find a single shred of evidence to back up your statement. I've spent quite a bit of time looking for a support link for the EM2 that would provide professional support and the ONLY link I've found is this forum. A forum like this is not a professional support structure. I have serious performance issues with the product that I would like to see resolved and if posting up on a forum is the only alternative, then perhaps it is time for me to begin examining the competition's products.
This sort of "support" is an insult to the many professionals who have relied on iView Media Pro for years and were forced to deal with Microsoft due to the buyout. Microsoft's recent behavior speaks much louder than words and fully supports the idea that they are getting ready to dump the product and move on. Perhaps it is time that someone in administration realizes that this sort of behavior has much more immediate ramifications than they might realize.
How long 'till this sort of rumor begins to take on a life of it's own and spread across the increasingly connected community of professionals?
Someone at the top better get their act together very soon. I'm going to take a second look at Extensis products.
If there is a link to real product support for EM2 that I've overlooked I would accept it gratefully.- Today's news states that Microsoft is going to partner with Yahoo to "take on Google".
Sometimes I think that the inattention at Expression is due to some sort of 'wait and see what everyone in the world is doing before we do anything' thought process. Maybe financial and maybe just an aversion to getting slammed in the tech world for software that is limited.
I never used Iview but in deciding which to use I did a lot of reading about Iview. Many of the options that were available with it don't seem to be now. The software seemed to be geared to the professional photographer who needed software to organize their work and send to various stock agencies. Most of those options are not available in the current program, and the examples of professional photographers who use expressions are - odd. Given that part of the focus used to be on stock is the way that they perceive the future of stock, or photography the reason for the inattention. I downloaded Extensis twice and could not get it to load due to a "error on drive E" glitch.
The creators of the Iview software were brought to Seattle to help work on the program so with all the problems it has you have to wonder what is going on. Is it just inattention to the program due to hyper focus elsewhere or are they actually trying to dump it or are the transplanted techs just not willing to work with MS anymore?
As for a real help process for Expression if you dig enough through the posts you will find that some people have been given email addresses for a 'direct' line for help with the software.
As time goes on it is amazing to me that all software manufacturers, not just MS, sell incomplete products. Everyone has updates and new versions. If I had bought a refrigerator that had the amount of problems that some of the software I have used has had I would have returned it and gotten my money back. I love technology but it sure has been a cash cow for some.
I have used this program and had some serious problems with it and I'm still using it but I am also concerned about the inability to get any word on upgrades. - I agree.. EM has some good usability - but the slowness is bad. And I think it should work equally well on Chrome.. it crashed twice. I am forced to use Firefox or IE.
Decuoo http://www.alldealscoupons.com - This post has the most update I have read and kind-of illustrates what I mean about lack of clear information.
pam ...but I am also concerned about the inability to get any word on upgrades.
pamelkel,
You won't get this sort of information from Microsoft as it is commercially sensitive - although hardly likely to affect their share price too much! The company I work for, not Microsoft, is working on several initiatives that our competitors would like to know about - we won't announce them for similar reasons until we're ready.
Like many posters on this forum you forget that its primary purpose is as a place for users of the software to discuss it. It is not meant as an official support place, so therefore don't take the lack of any announcements as a portent of impending doom! Sometimes "no news" really is just that.
So I'm posting on behalf of the quieter majority to say that I like xMedia and it works for me. Sure it has its quirks but I work around these. I'm not worried that it has been removed from the Expression Suite. I do have v1 of that software and it currently satisfies my needs - so no need to upgrade to the latest v3. Also remember a large number of xMedia users are on Macs, so the Suite is of zero use to them. In a way it kind of makes sense to me to separate it out. In fact iView Media Pro still works for me. It didn't break on the day xMedia came out. Likewise there's been a couple of upgrades to my camera but my one keeps producing the goods.
So if Microsoft does pull the plug on it I won't panic. Sure I'll be disappointed but what I currently have will continue to work. I've looked at some of the competition and trialled several pieces of software. They all do some bits of the DAM process better than xMedia but I've yet to find anything that does the whole package as well.
Ian- Ian,
I like expressions also and it works well but not well enough to take advantage of all of the options that are in the program. Extensis Portfolio is some serious competition.
One comment that keeps resounding here is that there is no official support of this software and it is hard, if not impossible to get help for problems. So, they take their questions to the forum and by the looks of it there haven't been too many answers. There are a lot of unanswered questions.
The answers to questions posed here on this thread and another one are completely answered in this post
Thank you for posting on behalf of the silent majority, as part of that majority and also a user of Iview maybe you can tell me what that little strip is for at the bottom on the thumbnail page.
I wish your company well but keep in mind, total focus on the competition and not paying attention to the people who buy the product can be dangerous. Silent product users are like the silent majority - at some point they just get up and go to another product and don't particularly care to even discuss it.- Proposto come rispostaDaniRo giovedì 30 luglio 2009 17.25
- "maybe you can tell me what that little strip is for at the bottom on the thumbnail page"It is for follow activity ex. when importing.
- Hi everyone,
I'm really sorry that the answers have been sparse lately. I'm the usual moderator on this forum, but recently had a liver transplant. I was just getting back to being able to answer questions when I got a nasty blood virus that put me back in the hospital. (Immunosupression leaves you vulnerable to all kinds of things.) My colleagues have tried to get time to help out, but they don't have a lot of time to devote to this.
I'm back at home now, and will be watching the forum as my health permits.
Anita Oakley
