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Selecting text HELL
Selecting text HELL
- Why is so impossible to select pieces of text in Expression? Sure I can select a whole paragraph easy enough which is great, but say I want to click+hold+drag to select some text, heven forbid I need to try clicking at the beginning of the paragraph and select just a few words. And why the HECK can't you CLICK, press SHIFT and then click to where you want to end selecting? Every piece of software on earth allows this ability to select text. I thought for sure this HUGE bug would be fixed in EW2 but it is NOT. I curse the text selecting function multiple times a day. When you work with text all day long this NEEDS to work better and FAST.
Thank you.
Answers
- I know how you feel, and I'm surprised that more MS programs don't emulate Word's excellent Extend Selection feature (F8 key). That's a very handy feature that ought to be in EW, Publisher, etc., and I don't understand why it's not. Actually, I don't understand why there aren't more across-the-board standard editing commands in MS programs.
And a hint: I often highlight backwards, starting at the end of the selection I want. That way I don't have to struggle clicking just-in-that-teeny-space-yeah-right-there before the first letter. The highlighting always catches the first letter if you sneak up on it from behind.- Marked As Answer byCorrie WilesMSFT, ModeratorWednesday, October 22, 2008 6:31 PM
- Proposed As Answer bylmm314 Tuesday, July 08, 2008 5:59 AM
- I know how you feel, and I'm surprised that more MS programs don't emulate Word's excellent Extend Selection feature (F8 key). That's a very handy feature that ought to be in EW, Publisher, etc., and I don't understand why it's not. Actually, I don't understand why there aren't more across-the-board standard editing commands in MS programs.
File a feature request http://connect.microsoft.com select Expression Feedback
MS MVP Expression- Marked As Answer byAnna UllrichMSFT, ModeratorFriday, February 20, 2009 12:08 AM
- This is definitely an ongoing issue with both EW1 and now EW2. What I did find that helped in EW1 was to turn off the "Visual Aids" option located in the status bar at the bottom of the page (double click on the word "On"). It helped in selecting text but alas, doesn't help in EW2. Hopefully this can help someone still using EW1.
What amazes me is the number of people posting here that seem to think this problem doesn't exist just because they have not experienced it! In the hundreds of web pages I've worked on I find it is most obvious when text is contained within borders or tables. Perhaps you pages don't use some of the features but it doesn't mean the problem isn't there and certainly that is not a valid complaint.
JJ
- Marked As Answer byAnna UllrichMSFT, ModeratorFriday, February 20, 2009 12:18 AM
All Replies
- Uh... if you think it's a bug, maybe you should file a bug report, but that definitely sounds more like a good addition (thankfully it doesn't bother me to much. Yet).
You know, I think this is more of a discussion... (you have the option to change it if you want to)
Take a chance. Prepare to be surprised.- Edited byOliver Black Friday, July 04, 2008 1:32 AMSuggestion
- There was a thread that addressed this a few months ago, and iirc it has something to do with either
some CSS or doctype setting.
I'll see if I can find it tomorrow.
I'm done for today.
FrontPage MVP - I can relate to that. I guess I chalked it up to the usual fussiness of WYSIWYG web editors. They all seem to be like this more or less. But I also just learned to get around it. I may click to place my mouse close to the beginning of what I want to select, then Control Left arrow to get to the beginning of a sentence or word, then either Control/Shift right arrow, or Shift/Right arrow to select a line of text or use those typical commands for selecting text. It sounds like a lot of steps, but it's the same thing I do anytime I'm typing to get around quickly.
There are other situations where it's simply impossible to select the very beginning of a word without breaking the code. Sometimes I use split view to see what's happening when EW refuses to allow me to select the first letter. Actually, I can select it, but if I try to type a new letter, it breaks the code. Maybe this is happening when I use a span tag, or maybe a bold or paragraph tag.
So I go into the code and change it there in those cases. There's another interesting thing that happens too. If I try to drag a selection of a sentence or something, the window very quickly scrolls all the way to the bottom of the screen. LOL. It's weird, but I'm so "conditioned" by this kind of wackiness from web editors, that I've never considered complaining about it. - I became SO frustrated with text selection bugs in EW2 that I have quit using it and reverted to EW1. I have used Dreamweaver for years which has none of these irritations. Software designers have been building WYSIWYG editors for website editing for long enough for these basic, basic issues to have been resolved long ago. This is just shoddy work by MS, they could use some lessons from the Macromedia/Adobe designers.
- I haven't noticed anything different from 1 to 2 in terms of dealing with text at all.
- I know how you feel, and I'm surprised that more MS programs don't emulate Word's excellent Extend Selection feature (F8 key). That's a very handy feature that ought to be in EW, Publisher, etc., and I don't understand why it's not. Actually, I don't understand why there aren't more across-the-board standard editing commands in MS programs.
And a hint: I often highlight backwards, starting at the end of the selection I want. That way I don't have to struggle clicking just-in-that-teeny-space-yeah-right-there before the first letter. The highlighting always catches the first letter if you sneak up on it from behind.- Marked As Answer byCorrie WilesMSFT, ModeratorWednesday, October 22, 2008 6:31 PM
- Proposed As Answer bylmm314 Tuesday, July 08, 2008 5:59 AM
- I try doing the highlighting backwards to, but mine wont catch the first letter. Will there ever be a fix for this?
- I know how you feel, and I'm surprised that more MS programs don't emulate Word's excellent Extend Selection feature (F8 key). That's a very handy feature that ought to be in EW, Publisher, etc., and I don't understand why it's not. Actually, I don't understand why there aren't more across-the-board standard editing commands in MS programs.
File a feature request http://connect.microsoft.com select Expression Feedback
MS MVP Expression- Marked As Answer byAnna UllrichMSFT, ModeratorFriday, February 20, 2009 12:08 AM
- lmm314 said:
I try doing the highlighting backwards to, but mine wont catch the first letter. Will there ever be a fix for this?
In the meantime, try the rather simple expedient of using the Shift+cursor keys. Click to place the cursor at the end of the selection, press and hold Shift, then use the arrow keys and the Home key to select the desired text.
cheers,
scott - This is an extremely annoying problem and it may look strange that it hasn't been fixed after so many complaints. However: I think I know the answer: You can select text quite easily in "code" or "split" view. For some reason, probably to do with "standards", the people behind EW want us to use code instead of WYSIWYG.
- Since I never work in pure design view unless I'm creating a video or demonstrating for effect I would never see it. Frankly, I think everyone should be working in split view so they can see what Expression is doing (or no doing) as the case may be.
MS MVP Expression - Well, not everyone (Because if you don't understand the code, what's the point of using up screen real estate?)
But I certainly think it's a good idea to use Split View.
Take a chance. Prepare to be surprised. - Dear Cheryl,
I remember the good old days when you told me that I could be sued if I did not adhere to the "standards." ;-) This is one of my most cherised memories. I am a good bit older now (about 1 year), but certainly not any wiser ;-)
Frankly, I don't care "what Expression is doing" as long as the result is what I want and what I intend it to be. With time I have also learned to use Expression in that way but I am sure that you would be horrified if you saw my "code." Luckily, I have not yet been sued. ;-)
But when I want to select text, I am forced to use "split" view. I can live with it. - When I say what Expression is doing that may just mean cursor placement which apparently you "do" care about. :)
MS MVP Expression - paladun said:lmm314 said:
I try doing the highlighting backwards to, but mine wont catch the first letter. Will there ever be a fix for this?
In the meantime, try the rather simple expedient of using the Shift+cursor keys. Click to place the cursor at the end of the selection, press and hold Shift, then use the arrow keys and the Home key to select the desired text.
cheers,
scott
Scott...Im lazy. Doing a bunch of press, hold shift, arrow keys is just plain silly to have to do. (atleast Im honest...lazy, LOL) Guess I'll try and make a habit of the split view for now.Oliver Black said:Well, not everyone (Because if you don't understand the code, what's the point of using up screen real estate?)
But I certainly think it's a good idea to use Split View.
Take a chance. Prepare to be surprised.
I'm with Oliver and Eklipspringer, you shouldn't say everyone. That's why Expression was suppose to be a little easier for people rather than the bloat of Dreamweaver. I like working in design view and only work in code view when I have too or to run a check through when I've completed a page. I've never came across any program that has this flaw. - I bugged this on Connect in February and the MS response was that they are aware of it and it will be fixed in a future release. See:
https://connect.microsoft.com/Expression/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=328712
By all means validate it, this may help push it up the to-do list!
Ian
http://www.ew-resource.co.uk
http://www.fp-resource.co.uk
Ian Haynes - That link brings up "Page Not Found". Is ID 355175 yours?
- Worked for me just now but I needed to log in to see it. Can't find bug 355175. (Have had trouble before searching for bugs by ID).
Ian
http://www.ew-resource.co.uk
Ian Haynes- Edited byIan HaynesMVPMonday, July 07, 2008 2:08 PMadded info
- I was logged in, but still couldn't find yours. Given your "can't find it, now I can" on the second one, I suspect a less than robust interface for the Connect site. :)
- Well, not everyone (Because if you don't understand the code, what's the point of using up screen real estate?)
But I certainly think it's a good idea to use Split View.So they can start learning and be able to fix their own mistakes?
After all, everyone makes mistakes, even me. <vbg>
MS MVP Expression - Ian Haynes said:
I bugged this on Connect in February and the MS response was that they are aware of it and it will be fixed in a future release. See:
https://connect.microsoft.com/Expression/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=328712
By all means validate it, this may help push it up the to-do list!
Ian
http://www.ew-resource.co.uk/
http://www.fp-resource.co.uk/
Ian Haynes
I got a page not found :( I wrote one on the Connect site too yesterday, not sure I did it right though...it's kind of confusing.
Lisa http://www.lisammurphy.com - Eric, try adding 1 pixel of padding to the container with the text.
FrontPage MVP - In my experience this problem does not exist in EW1, only EW2 so somebody broke something. And yes, using code view does show where EW2 is screwing up the code so one can fix it but I don't know of any other similar application where this is necessary, and as an MVP I don't understand your attitude that a workaround for the bug exists so what's the problem!
- Cheryl D. Wise wrote: "Since I never work in pure design view unless I'm creating a video or demonstrating for effect I would never see it. Frankly, I think everyone should be working in split view so they can see what Expression is doing (or no doing) as the case may be."
Cheryl, in my experience this problem does not exist in EW1, only EW2 so somebody broke something. And yes, using code view does show where EW2 is screwing up the code so one can fix it but I don't know of any other similar application where this is necessary, and as an MVP I don't understand your attitude that a workaround for the bug exists so what's the problem!
Anyway, apparently MS doesn't consider this important enough to warrant a bug fix instead we must wait for (and no doubt pay again for) the next release. Whoever makes these decisions should be forced to use the app every day, dealing with these annoying bugs every time they try to work with it. EW2 is so bad I have given up on it and gone back to EW1. - <quote>
and as an MVP I don't understand your attitude that a workaround for the bug exists so what's the problem!
</quote>
Well excuse me for trying to help with a possible workaround.
It's a known bug and it's being worked on so your for now choices are:
Try the workaround.
Go back to EW 1.
Or keep complaining
Your decision.
FrontPage MVP - I don't want to make an excuse for this problem, and possibility that Microsoft won't fix it except maybe in a paid update of the program. However, I feel that the use of the computer keyboard to select text has made this problem nearly a non-issue for me. It's likely the same with many of the MVPs and professional users. I don't count myself among them, but I'm expert at using all manner of keyboard command for selecting text. It's the best thing since sliced bread for me. For those users who aren't using these key commands, then you should know that you're doing yourself a disservice both in Expression Web, and everywhere else you type. These key command methods for selecting text are standard on everything. Browsers, email programs, forums, text editors, web editors. If you reach for the mouse each time you want to select a word, or a line, then you're working much slower than you could be. I'm reading here that this is a bug for Expression Web 2, yet I see no difference between EW1 and EW2. That's likely because of my use of the keyboard for selecting text.
Don't take this as criticism. This is advice that in my opinion could kill two birds with 1 stone. Firstly, it will make your life easier in Expression Web. Secondly, it will make your life easier anytime you type anything, anywhere. - I don't see a difference between EW1 and EW2 for this. What I did discover is that there is a difference depending on what font you are using. It is definitely a function of how close you come to the container edge before EW decides "Finish the selection of this letter" or "Oh, we are selecting the container", and some fonts make this situation worse than others - and the difference doesn't have to be much.
Yes, this needs fixed. It's an annoyance that shouldn't be there. However, it doesn't doom the program, for me, since you can work around it for now. I have to say I was surprised that EW2 didn't have an improvement in this over EW1, since it's a bug that has been known forever. - RichardFH said:Richard, I wish I had your version of EW1 because the select text problem is and was in both versions of EW for me. Although I find that it seems to be even more noticible in version 2. And the biggest thing that makes me upset is when you insert bullets. It wont highlight them at all if their next to the edge of a cell or something. Im slowly getting used to the split view but I find it in the way sometimes :(
Cheryl D. Wise wrote: "Since I never work in pure design view unless I'm creating a video or demonstrating for effect I would never see it. Frankly, I think everyone should be working in split view so they can see what Expression is doing (or no doing) as the case may be."
Cheryl, in my experience this problem does not exist in EW1, only EW2 so somebody broke something. And yes, using code view does show where EW2 is screwing up the code so one can fix it but I don't know of any other similar application where this is necessary, and as an MVP I don't understand your attitude that a workaround for the bug exists so what's the problem!
Anyway, apparently MS doesn't consider this important enough to warrant a bug fix instead we must wait for (and no doubt pay again for) the next release. Whoever makes these decisions should be forced to use the app every day, dealing with these annoying bugs every time they try to work with it. EW2 is so bad I have given up on it and gone back to EW1.
Lisa - KathyW2 said:
I was logged in, but still couldn't find yours. Given your "can't find it, now I can" on the second one, I suspect a less than robust interface for the Connect site. :)
Yep, the Connect site sucks with a very large vacuum. OK, bad simile. How about with several negative powers of Pascals? ;-)
I have followed suggestions here to report a problem in Connect and have been unable to even locate the reference there, although supposedly it had already been "bugged" by others. IMNSHO, Microsoft has totally hosed both their forums and, apparently, their problem resolution system by determining to "eat their own dog food" and rewrite everything in dotnet. This is, unfortunately, similar to Adobe's decision to rewrite their excellent Adobe Exchange system using Flash and other technologies they canniba... acquired when they bought Macromedia.
As a long-time user of Photoshop, I was first irritated, then dismayed, by the loss of functionality and resource availability caused by this change. Now, I simply don't bother to look there for anything. Google can usually (not always) find for me the action, layer style, whatever that I am looking for. I'm afraid that I am coming to the same conclusion about Microsoft. Kinda sucks, since as an MCP I should theoretically champion MS technology. Sorry guys, you either succeed or you fail. With Connect, and with these forums, you didn't succeed. Read that however you wish...
cheers,
scott
P.S. I found it ironic that the spell checker did not recognize "Photoshop." C'mon, Microsoft, you guys blip out as inanely harmless a word as c__r__a__p, but you can't recognize the name of the premier raster editing application in the world?
Lame, really frickin' lame. - Eric Stoffers said:
Why is so impossible to select pieces of text in Expression? Sure I can select a whole paragraph easy enough which is great, but say I want to click+hold+drag to select some text, heven forbid I need to try clicking at the beginning of the paragraph and select just a few words. And why the HECK can't you CLICK, press SHIFT and then click to where you want to end selecting? Every piece of software on earth allows this ability to select text. I thought for sure this HUGE bug would be fixed in EW2 but it is NOT. I curse the text selecting function multiple times a day. When you work with text all day long this NEEDS to work better and FAST.
Thank you.
Sorry to join this party late but I was just looking at the latest Connect feedback and came across your bug report which mentions this forum thread. I can't reproduce the issue. Putting my cursor in a paragraph and then pressing Shift and clicking elsewhere works just fine for me. Are there more specific instructions I need to reproduce what y'all are describing?
Anna
http://blogs.msdn.com/anna - Anna Ullrich said:Eric Stoffers said:
Why is so impossible to select pieces of text in Expression? Sure I can select a whole paragraph easy enough which is great, but say I want to click+hold+drag to select some text, heven forbid I need to try clicking at the beginning of the paragraph and select just a few words. And why the HECK can't you CLICK, press SHIFT and then click to where you want to end selecting? Every piece of software on earth allows this ability to select text. I thought for sure this HUGE bug would be fixed in EW2 but it is NOT. I curse the text selecting function multiple times a day. When you work with text all day long this NEEDS to work better and FAST.
Thank you.
Sorry to join this party late but I was just looking at the latest Connect feedback and came across your bug report which mentions this forum thread. I can't reproduce the issue. Putting my cursor in a paragraph and then pressing Shift and clicking elsewhere works just fine for me. Are there more specific instructions I need to reproduce what y'all are describing?
Anna
http://blogs.msdn.com/anna
OK, I think I see ... are you referring to not being able to select the very first character in the paragraph...ugh, that is lame. It appears to be inconsistent too. I don't recall this being reported before but Ian I'll find your bug report and make sure it's linked with this new report.
Anna
http://blogs.msdn.com/anna - Wow... and I've been thinking it's just been me all this time. The behavior is the same in 1 and 2. I always figured I simply needed to figure out the proper way for what I assumed was a purposeful issue. Over the course of months I've spent much time looking for the answer. Much wasted time, as it turns out. This is why I often hop back into DW when I need to do text editing. But I don't really want to.
MS Fix the text selector, and make the FTP fly and add cloak for an entire directory, and EW will win a lot of DW users over.
Rick Dieffenbach
www.learnexpressionweb.com
www.allureiw.com
www.boatmaine.us
rickidoo What do you mean "cloak for an entire directory"?
For the other issue, try adding 1 pixel of padding to the containers so EW can differentiate between the container and the text.
I know it's a workaround and not a fix, but....?
FrontPage MVP- Sorry - cloak is a DW term. It means prevent a file or a directory (and sub directories) from being FTP's. When a directory is cloaked, it is not considered when syncronizing up or down. EW has a "don't publish" on a file basis, but so far as I have found, not on a directory basis.
Rick
rickidoo - Jim Cheshire, who is well known in the community has a free addin that will mark a directory as do not publish.
It's named selective Publish and can be found here:
http://www.jimcosoftware.com/addins.aspx
hth
FrontPage MVP- Edited bySteve EastonMVPSaturday, July 19, 2008 1:42 AMkeyboard operator interface error
- Hi, I just found this post and am very interested in it. My problem did not always occur, so I'm sure that I must have installed something, or changed something somewhere that caused it to happen.
I can't select text either, but with me, if I click in the middle of some text it will either select the whole page or select from where I click backward to the top of the document, or just jump to the bottom of the page for no reason. I can work around the actual selecting in split view.
But, if I even click within my page, most of the time it will produce some unwanted random result such as, selecting the whole page, or dropping me down to the bottom of the page after selecting everything or take me to some random area on the page. Also, while attempting to click in my page, it might start randomly adjusting margins on tables. It's really hard to navigate around my pages in code view. Even if I want to do the edit in code view, I want to get there in design view, if that makes any sense at all.
Anyway, I tried EW2 to see if that would make my problem go away, it didn't. I have tried uninstalling and reinstalling EW, tried several video drivers and mouse drivers, a shot in the dark I realize. I've tried anything that I could think of and searched everywhere for similar problems, and this thread is the closest I've seen. I'm so frustrated with this problem, it takes so long to get anything done, but I've wasted so much time trying to find a solution. I am using asp and master pages and can't afford DW anyway. I'm not quite a newbie, but am self-taught so I'm close.
Any help or suggestions would be appreciated more than I could ever convey...
Kim - kbrown5523 said:OK, these are shots in the dark, but if you are using a wireless mouse, have you checked/changed the batteries recently? I get some really bizarre mouse actions when my mouse batteries get weak. Just as an experiment, have you tried a different type of mouse (USB or PS2) to see if the symptom persists? If the manufacturer, e.g. Logitech or Microsoft, provides hardware-specific software or drivers, have you checked to see if you have the most up-to-date versions? Do you ever see similar behavior in other Microsoft or other vendor's products, or is this isolated to EW? If only in EW, does it happen both in design view and code view?
<<::snip::>>
I can't select text either, but with me, if I click in the middle of some text it will either select the whole page or select from where I click backward to the top of the document, or just jump to the bottom of the page for no reason. I can work around the actual selecting in split view.
But, if I even click within my page, most of the time it will produce some unwanted random result such as, selecting the whole page, or dropping me down to the bottom of the page after selecting everything or take me to some random area on the page. Also, while attempting to click in my page, it might start randomly adjusting margins on tables. It's really hard to navigate around my pages in code view. Even if I want to do the edit in code view, I want to get there in design view, if that makes any sense at all.
<<::snip::>>Any help or suggestions would be appreciated more than I could ever convey...
Kim
cheers,
scott Thanks for helping. It's not a wireless mouse, but I do want to try another mouse, I usually have a spare somewhere, but I don't right now. The behavior is only occurring in EW in design view, when in code view or the code pane in split view, there is no problem. Only design pane, only EW. Haven't noticed any erratic mouse behavior in any other apps including word.
- I does all that skipping around and selecting what it wants to me to, so I don't think it's the mouse...mines not a wireless either. I have found that if I have a long page and I try selecting some text, it will jump up to the top of the page over and over every time I try to do it again. Definitely have to use the code view for lengthy pages here. Your not alone ;)
Lisa - kbrown5523 said:Ah, so that may be why I haven't seen any symptoms like that. I work in code view, and just use the design pane as a check on what I've entered. Actually, I don't really depend a whole lot on that, either, preferring to check periodically using View in Browser. The design view, although it is miles beyond that in Dreamweaver MX 2004, is still not as true to the render as viewed in an actual browser. You might want to view this tutorial and see what I mean http://by-expression.com/media/p/1300.aspx.
Thanks for helping. It's not a wireless mouse, but I do want to try another mouse, I usually have a spare somewhere, but I don't right now. The behavior is only occurring in EW in design view, when in code view or the code pane in split view, there is no problem. Only design pane, only EW. Haven't noticed any erratic mouse behavior in any other apps including word.
cheers,
scott - I'm not sure if I pointed this out before or not, but this same kind of behavior is happening to a degree in Dreamweaver. I guess I kind of chalked it up to "that's just the way visual web editors work". I've gotten very good at not letting it happen though. For example. Sometimes in a table I may want to select a whole row. If I try to click on the left and drag across to the right, it immediately goes flying down to the bottom of the page. If I use control click, and instead of dragging, just control click on the right side, it doesn't go flying to the bottom of the page. Also, all the various standard key commands for selecting letters, words, and lines all work well to help avoid this problem in the meantime whether Microsoft ever does anything about this problem, or not.
- Stoneman1968 said:It occurs to me after reviewing these descriptions of the symptoms that what is being observed is a result of the nature of the medium being edited. Because the design pane only holds a representation of what is rendered by the code in the code view, when you are selecting in the design surface, the editor is actually trying to determine which element in the code the selection should be applied to.
I'm not sure if I pointed this out before or not, but this same kind of behavior is happening to a degree in Dreamweaver. I guess I kind of chalked it up to "that's just the way visual web editors work". I've gotten very good at not letting it happen though. For example. Sometimes in a table I may want to select a whole row. If I try to click on the left and drag across to the right, it immediately goes flying down to the bottom of the page. If I use control click, and instead of dragging, just control click on the right side, it doesn't go flying to the bottom of the page. Also, all the various standard key commands for selecting letters, words, and lines all work well to help avoid this problem in the meantime whether Microsoft ever does anything about this problem, or not.
For example, suppose you have a div with a paragraph of text, so
<div id="AboutUs"><p>Lots of text here</p></div>
Now, when you try to select from the first word in any line of that text, there is a very sharp boundary between what is part of the <p> element and the surrounding <div> container. So sharp, in fact, that in the absence of margins or padding the boundary literally changes from one screen pixel to the next. Click on the very first pixel of the text para and you start a selection of the paragraph. Click on the pixel to its left and the software sees that as the end of the opening <div> tag and selects the whole div, as it should, so the selection jumps to the end of the div's contents.
You can test this two ways. One, work in split view, and, before trying to select in the design pane, navigate the code view to the same point you're trying to select in design view. Try your selection and, if it jumps to the bottom as described, look up in the code view and see if it isn't the container being selected, rather than its text content (elements selected in design view are also selected in code view).
Another way to check is to apply some padding to your text element, so
<div id="AboutUs"><p style="padding:2em;">Lots of text here</p></div>
As you will note, this will move your text content over to the right. Now if you try to select from the first character of text, there is an area 2 em wide to its left which is part of the para element and which provides a safe zone and lets the editor determine precisely which element the select start applies to.
I could be wrong about this, so give it a try and let me know what happens. My trial expired so I can't test it myself at the moment.
cheers,
scott Lisa, thanks for your input, I think it might have helped me figure out what triggered the problem for me. Because I didn't use to have this problem at all. I think it is the length of the page. I work with asp and a master page. I'm not positive, but I bet the problem started when I lengthened my master page. Which I'm glad to figure out, but sad that this is probably just the way it is since I can't shorten my pages.
Thanks Scott, I will try the paragraph padding, but I already have a 4px padding on the content div so I don't know if it would help or not, but I'll try it.
I am a newbie, so my knowledge is limited, but if Scott's explanation is right, then why would it only occur when a page is "long"? If that is indeed what triggers this issue?
I also want to say that I don't use design view for a representation of what I'm going to see in a browser, it's not even close. I work in split view and like to use the design pane for navigating, it is really hard for me to find things in code view. Also I like it for basic placement of elements, I can't always keep track of what's going on in code view. If I could get away without Design View, I wouldn't be using EW, the whole point of EW is to not have to do everything in code view. Aren't there much better editors if you work strictly with code?
I am curious if Microsoft is really aware of the severity of this issue. They're selling this program on it's ability to use and not know code, but this issue negates that claim.
Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions,
Kim- Hello,
Just to add my two cents. I am also having this problem is EW1. It seem to only happen for me when I have text in a table. When I try to highlight a block of text, on the 2nd mark I get a white + when I hit the shift key. Not sure what this means, but I thought I would add it to the soup. - Kim, I could very well have been wrong in my suggestion, which is why I couched it as a surmise and not a positive statement of fact. Hell, if I had a buck for every time I've been wrong in my life I could probably retire right now. ;-)
One thing that led me to start thinking that way, though, was how odd selection can act on any Web page. Seriously, go to any fairly complicated site, like Amazon, eBay, MSN.com, etc. and try to grab specific elements or text sections. Often you will see just the kind of behavior people are describing, with whole articles being selected when only a paragraph was wanted, extraneous menus and so forth that you wouldn't think had any relationship to what you're trying to grab, adjacent table cells to the one wanted, etc. Conversely, sometimes you will click a point where you think that you will be starting a selection, then drag and nothing happens, because you apparently were outside of the actual container that you thought that you were clicking in.
The Design Pane is just a somewhat limited version of a browser, so if advanced rendering engines like those in modern browsers can exhibit this problem, it just seemed to me that the one in EW's Design Pane might also be subject to it.
Like I said in a previous post, I don't use the Design Pane for this purpose, so the issue doesn't really affect me. If you use it mainly as a locator so you can find a visual element in the code, highlighting just a part of the element should suffice to help you locate it in code, because that part will also be highlighted.
cheers,
scott
- Edited bypaladyn Thursday, August 07, 2008 5:11 AM....
I hear what you are saying. But regarding the part about the visual locator, that's the problem. I can't even just click in the design pane to then use the code pain. Just clicking makes it either select everything or throws me to the bottom of the page. I really wish I knew how you guys make edits on a long page without using the design pane. I go cross-eyed in a minute trying to identify one little element in a sea of code. Truly, I am so amazed at my ineptitude and other's abilities.
Oh, and again, any idea why it would only happen after I lengthened my pages? And really I would say my site is pretty basic, not at all complicated. If you're willing to take a look and tell me if you see anything about the site that could be contributing to the problem it's: JeansHub.com
Thanks again for your help,
Kim- I have been attempting to reproduce this problem but text selection seems to work fine here. Has this been fixed or could it have anything to do with my preferences and system set up?
Kim,
I use split view. That way I can see what is being selected in Design View and if necessary can adjust it in the code half.Andrew,
This is one of those intermittent, random sort of bugs that don't hit everyone and even those it does hit can be difficult to track down. As other mentioned it can happen in a variety of programs, not just Expression.
MS MVP Expression http://by-expression.com- The problem might hit you, or might not. I have sites where I don't have the problem at all, and newer sites that are as sticky about selecting text next to the edge of a container as others are finding it. Font makes some difference, but even when I experiment with making the fonts and text size the same, with no padding in the container, I have no trouble with edge text selection on some sites, and find it problematic in others. That's a mystery to me.
- I have stopped using EW2 and reverted to EW1 primarily because of text selection issues in Preview that are not a problem on the same PC with EW1. These issues include:
- Frequent inability to select the first character in the first line after a line break, haven't identified any specific conditions that may trigger this behavior.
- EW2's complete refusal to select the first character in a block of text if it is an encoded apostrophe or quotation mark etc.
- When selecting a block of text in order two wrap with <div> tags, EW2 consistently puts the opening <div> tag after the first selected paragraph's opening <p> tag which is no good to man or beast.
- This is not a bug report or, a discussion or, a filing of a complaint or, a bringing it up with someone who might or might not get around to it after plowing through 750 emails a day - (someone with a daytime job) - this is a question of:
"I'd really like my money back please. I purchased this assuming the mouse would work. It doesn't. The lack of an accurate mouse response is costing me money and time both." or,
"Does anyone have a copy of EW2 out there where the mouse works correctly - 1st time & everytime with no "workarounds". You know, just like in Ms Word?" I'll trade you my copy of EW2 for yours! or,
"We're sorry Sir, this is Software. Our legal department advises us never to refund money under any circumstances. Have you wasted the necessary 100's of hours yet doing this and that and waiting on hold for umpteen hours over 78 phone calls over 3 months - because the landscape has changed you know!" or, "Oh, please file a bug report and we'll get around to it - sometime, maybe, honest" or, "Oh, I've got another job offer - just let me bring another 22 year old kid fresh out from school up-to-speed on this...." or, "Oh, Expression Web 18 is due out in the 7th quarter of 2020 and just hang on please, don't bug us, it's our job to make bugs for you...."
and on and on.
Let me Speak for thousands of us out there in plain and simple English, very clearly and very concisely. Watch my lips now:
"Please can we get the mouse movements fixed in EW2. By the end of next week would be great!"
Oh, this isn't the forum for this? Well, it sure seems to reach out to a lot of the right people very quickly.
Thank you.
What could possibly go wrong? - Oops. Just in case anyone wanted to trade a working copy of EW2 with me for one with the errant mouse behavior I apologise for being so slow to take you up on the offer. It appears this is the only forum in the world that does not notify you of replies to your posts.
How special is that?
What could possibly go wrong? - It's hard to believe this thread is still going on (but then again, maybe it isn't).
In addition to the "text selection" bug, I dislike that when I select something in Code View, if I right click it (in order to cut and paste somewhere else) the selection goes away. Instead, I have to select and go to the edit menu.
Bug or design flaw?
- I agree, hard to believe this critical productivity issue and other blatant bugs have not already been fixed by Microsft with an update. Frankly I am disappointed with the overall poor quality of EW, I really expected better from MS as they have an excellent example of a superb competitive product in Dreamweaver plus they had many years of experience with FrontPage from wich one would hope they would have learned something. For now I am recommending folks who ask that they stay away from EW. I am also hesitant to invest in any of the other products in the Expression suite because I lack confidence they will be any better than EW.
- Oliver,
I've never had the issue you mention about selecting highlighted text in code view.
Also, for any one interested, a simple work around for the text selection issue is to
give the containers some default padding.
I know it's a workaround, but it works and saves a lot of frustration.
Just add it, and then remove it when you're done editing the page.
a, p, div, td{
padding: 2px;
}
FrontPage MVP - "I dislike that when I select something in Code View, if I right click it (in order to cut and paste somewhere else) the selection goes away. Instead, I have to select and go to the edit menu."
Never happens to me. Right-click cut and paste works just fine in code view. - It was just my laptop's mousepad... sorry...
- Oliver Black said:I believe it to be critically important to keep this thread going so that it's always at the top of the list - kind of a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" type attitude...
It's hard to believe this thread is still going on (but then again, maybe it isn't).
In addition to the "text selection" bug, I dislike that when I select something in Code View, if I right click it (in order to cut and paste somewhere else) the selection goes away. Instead, I have to select and go to the edit menu.
Bug or design flaw?
It also serves to point out that these problems are real for so many users and, in spite of the present ignor-ance (nothing's been done about these errant rodent issues) towards these factual and repeatable annoyances - the allusions to these real and frustrating issues are not going to dissappear.
And, absolutely the Selection goes away in Code view (if the selection is up against the code view margin). Ctrl-C or the Edit menu are - again, one more time - the workarounds.
Just because some people experience this and others don't does not weigh the "Software Perfection Scale balance" in the favor of those who don't. Aka; "Well it doesn't happen to Bob therefore Susie's imagining it". These are real rodent (infestation) problems and issues with financial and productivity tolls for everyone concerned; The MVP's who help here, the coders whose productivity decreases, the end user who mistakenly thinks "Oh, this must be my fault" and MS who loses a sale - or three (to you know who!)
Oh, and I just have to ask the question: KathyW2 and Steve, you aren't using a Microsoft Mouse are you? I use an HP mouse with scroll wheel. Could this be the issue?
How sad that this is even a question I consider asking seriously...... :(
What could possibly go wrong?- Edited byAspasa Sunday, August 10, 2008 4:05 AMperfection
- Yes, Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 optical mouse for me.
Believe me when I say that the dev team is painfully aware of the issues
of text selection and slow typing response, because my self and others
remind them constantly.
Either through bug updates or direct email, and to be honest every email
I've sent to the dev team leader has been responded to with a matter of hours
if not minutes.
There is an amazing amount of interaction between EW and the mouse pointer
in design view, and it is the pointer position that fires spell check, intellisense
and a bunch of other stuff.
Every keyboard keystroke changes the pointer position which then triggers the
spell check routine and other position related items.
Additionally, display adapter ( video card ) issues can also cause these sort of problems.
My machine has an NVIDIA GForce 7300 GT.
During early beta testing I found EW painfully slow to load and painfully slow
when working in design view in my core 2 Duo machine.
I found that it was all caused by a missing NVIDIA registry entry that caused explorer.exe
to constantly and repeatedly look for the entry.
40,000 + times just while EW was trying to load for example.
This is just a small example of what the dev team is up against.
FrontPage MVP - Steve,
Thank you for reminding me of the "human element" involved in this "errant rodent" issue.
Perhaps my expectations are too high - I expect it to be like buying a new car (you know, it just works). Perhaps my idealism has not been tempered enough by wisdom - I'd like coders and developers to be in charge of "product release" (rather than marketers). Perhaps my patience is running thin with with MegaSoftware companies - the constant patches, upgrades and service packs leading us unwaveringly to yet a nother hastily marketed $$$ bug laden version. Perhaps I should change careers and become a politician!
That said, who is it that makes the decision about end users time not being important enough to be recompensed? Why was this not honestly disclosed - with integrity - at the time of release? Yes, we expect this with Betas but, this Alfalfa release should have disclosed the specific issues remaining to be resolved - and there are many. In addition, we should be informed and made aware of whether we are going to be required to pay a third time for a "closer to fine" release.
The goal here is to produce quality software at a fair price - that works. Personally I want EW to annihalate DreamWeaver; I want Windows to send Leopard, Jaguar, Puma, Tiger, Kittty, or whatever this month's release of the Mac O/S is, back to 1% Market Share. I want Silverlight to to make Flash a relic of a bygone era; I want Live Search to be a strong competitor breathing down the neck, at every turn, of the Big "G"!
You get now a bit more of an idea from whence cometh my dissappointment and, given the various software releases of the past few years my vision above is, if not shared by, then certainly not implemented by the executive board at Microsoft. This constant production of hastily released to market Software is very very costly to the financial growth and stability of MS. People do have choices and some of their products are mentioned above!
Perhaps if we made Marketing & Sales responsible for all technical support calls - and incorporated that into their cost center - then the Software world would be saner, more balanced, more reliable and, I'd have less grey hair too! (Step right up ladies!!!)
Thanks again for reading my rant and keeping this post at the top of the list.
What could possibly go wrong? - "Oh, and I just have to ask the question: KathyW2 and Steve, you aren't using a Microsoft Mouse are you? I use an HP mouse with scroll wheel. Could this be the issue?
How sad that this is even a question I consider asking seriously...... :("
FWIW, I do not have these issues either, and I use a Logitech wireless optical scroll mouse.
And, you know, I don't think that it is necessarily a bad (or sad ;-) thing to consider. Mice are hardware devices and have device drivers, so it is within the realm of possibility that they could be an issue, just as it often happens that video device drivers (or settings, such as hardware acceleration on or off) can cause issues. I'm not saying that that is what is at play here (I won't venture to speculate, since I cannot reproduce the effect and therefore can't really investigate), but it shouldn't be ruled out altogether.
cheers,
scott
- "Oh, and I just have to ask the question: KathyW2 and Steve, you aren't using a Microsoft Mouse are you? I use an HP mouse with scroll wheel. Could this be the issue?"
No, I'm using a Logitech mouse, with wheel, and not wireless. Prior to gettting sick of constant recharging the batteries, I was using a wireless mouse, Gateway brand. Which mouse I used made no difference to me in how EW responds. - <quote>
Thank you for reminding me of the "human element" involved in this "errant rodent" issue.
</quote>
We share the same frustrations.
However, here's an even bigger human element to consider.
Take all of the EW or FP or other MSFT program users out there, and then multiply that
by the thousands of downloadable utilities, widgits, anti spy, anti virus, firewall, game,
and what ever else you can think of "programs" there are out there.
It is virtually impossible for MSFT or any other company to duplicate the millions
of possible configuration combinations when creating and testing a program.
That's why there are beta releases that are given out to just about any one who wants them.
IIRC there were 5,000 for EW 1.
All it takes is one "psuedo" developer to whip up an installer using Inno and replace
a newer .ddl with an older one because his app only works with the old version because he's
calling an api by it's ordinal instead of its proper name and bingo we have an issue.
See where I'm going with this?
As an example, the dev team could not duplicate the slow typing issue on any of their dev machines.
So, they searched until they found a machine that would duplicate it just so they could try to figure it out. This I know for a fact.
They could not duplicate an ftp:// issue we had bugged, so during a conference call I
gave them the credentials for my personal hobby site, and basically told them have at it.
We have a poster who visits here who has a time stamp issue with ftp:// on his server.
I can't duplicate it on mine, ( Apache / UNIX ) but I could on his. ( Apache/UNIX )
I put the dev team leader in touch with the poster with the issue and they are going to test against his server.
Thing is, we are convinced it's a configuration issue with Apache/UNIX but we can't figure out what to look for.
So my point is, the dev team really does care, it's just that the brick walls are getting thicker.
FrontPage MVP - ok, not too sure if what you all are talking about is the same problem as me, but it's the closest I can find, so I hope someone can help me.
First off, let me explain, I'm not technical at all. I am still struggling with EW but starting to get the hang of most of the basic stuff. However, the problem I'm having at the moment is so basic it can't be something I'm doing wrong!
When I try to select a single piece of text to format, eg bold, colour, that formatting is applied to the whole paragraph, layer, cell. It doesn't matter how I try to do this, EW just applies the formatting to the whole lot instead of to just the particular word or phrase that I have highlighted.
I have no problem selecting the text, just formatting it. It works if I do it in the code area but as I'm not techie, I don't want to work in code. The whole point of wysiwyg is for folks like me, who don't know the first thing about code.
This seems to be a new problem as I've created sites previously and been able to select and alter single pieces of text so I don't understand why it's just happened now. Have I perhaps changed some settings inadvertently to make it do this?
Lord knows what I've done. But if anyone can help I'd be grateful. The cost of this thing wasn't cheap, and I really need it to be as simple as possible.
Thanks.
Susan
- You've done nothing, it's an issue with Expression.
If your familair with CSS add some padding to the elements that contain text.
p, td, div, span{
padding: 5px;
}
FrontPage MVP - Hi Steve
I've tried adding the padding after reading this thread, but it still isn't working. And why has it just started happening? I've had EW since April, and it used to be fine.
Thought about downloading it again, in case I'd done something, but I have a slow connection and it takes hours to downoad, so I'd rather not go through it if I can avoid it.
- Don't assume downloading it again will fix it. It's a mystery why it happens (especially when it didn't used to) or, in a few cases for me, happens, then stops happening. Since the root cause is unclear, the fix is also unclear.
- The issue seems to be mouse related, that's why not everyone has the problem.
Can't help but wonder if some recent software update changed your mouse drivers or
mouse settings.
What kind of PC and what kind of mouse do you have?
FrontPage MVP - I can't find any mouse relation. I've used two different types and brand of mouses, and it made no change. I've had the problem on some sites but not others, with the same mouse.
- Hi
Well, the only thing I've updated on my computer is to install some more memory and don't see how that can be related.
My computer is just a pretty basic model. HP (G3100 according to my control panel) and same goes for the mouse.
I haven't updated any software or done anything as far as I'm aware that could make it go bonkers. But I figure if it is a bug with the software then surely there must be grounds for getting a refund so I can go buy something else?
Or at least get access to have EW1 instead, since it seems there wasn't an issue with that version.
My technical know how just doesn't stretch to messing with code, which is why I bought EW. Prior to this I used Frontpage and am wishing I'd just stuck with that!
- Ok, I have managed to find out what the problem was with my EW. Checking through some of the feedback and came across this.
Somehow I had set the 'style application' to manual, instead of auto. Changed it and now my text selection is working fine again.
Thanks for the advice though it seems my problem wasn't related to the same problem you all are having. Unless you also have the style app. set to manual?
- Interesting thanks.
I'll have to play with that.
FrontPage MVP - "Somehow I had set the 'style application' to manual, instead of auto. Changed it and now my text selection is working fine again."
I'm glad you found something that worked for you.
On the other hand, all my sites are Style Application: Auto. They are a mixed bag where some are affected by more difficult text selection, and some are not. ..And not consistently, and I can't find a common thread.
Add this style application mode, with the mouse issue proposal, to the list of random solutions that don't work for all, for the random problem that doesn't affect all.
(This thread could turn into the length of War and Peace before there is a comprehensive solution. :) )- Edited byKathyW2 Friday, August 22, 2008 5:43 AMxyzzy
- KathyW2 said:<g> Might as well add my comment. When I read about the manual/auto solution (for those to whom it is in fact a solution ;-), I tried switching back and forth to see what effect, if any, it had. Nada. Either mode, selection works as expected. I can get part of one list item, the whole item, the whole list or a subset of list items, any parts of paragraphs, etc. I very seldom ever edit in the design pane, but it's nice to know that I can do so without issue if I need to do some minor editing.
"Somehow I had set the 'style application' to manual, instead of auto. Changed it and now my text selection is working fine again."
I'm glad you found something that worked for you.
On the other hand, all my sites are Style Application: Auto. They are a mixed bag where some are affected by more difficult text selection, and some are not. ..And not consistently, and I can't find a common thread.
Add this style application mode, with the mouse issue proposal, to the list of random solutions that don't work for all, for the random problem that doesn't affect all.
(This thread could turn into the length of War and Peace before there is a comprehensive solution. :) )
Frankly, I have no idea what's happening. I speculated in an earlier post, but reading the thread as it has grown shows no apparent rhyme or reason as to why some see the problem and others don't. Let's hope the dev team can figure it out and correct it.
cheers,
scott
- I noticed that if you change the text align to right or center the issue gets resolved, maybe this can be a hint for a solution...
- The whole point is...you shouldn't have to go through hoops to make a paid for program work. It should just work and if something is buggy, they should fix it. It's not mouse related, I have tons of mice and none help, I've run this progam on different computers and each have the problem. It's Microsoft. And speaking of Microsoft...I wrote a feedback about this on Microsoft Connect on 7/6/08 and their just now proposing an answer....
I wrote (when I was getting frustrated): EW1 had a selecting text in Design view bug and I thought for sure the new version would have it fixed. Not!
Instead of typing the whole issue again, theirs a alot of of people sharing the same thoughts on your forum...
http://forums.expression.microsoft.com/en-US/web/thread/d1fdc195-ec6c-491a-b98d-c12691df79ec
I know you have to know of this bug by now, Im just floored it has never been fixed. And to save us all from moaning about it, could anyone answer if it will ever be fixed?
There answer: In many scenarios, text selection works fine. Can you provide us with a specific page and selection scenario that reproduces your problem?
It is very likely given the details in the discussion you reference that the issue is caused by the types of HTML elements involved in the selection, so having specifics will help clarify what the issue is.
Thanks for your feedback!
David
Microsoft Expression Web
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to respond back with .... Ummm, it doesn't matter what types of HTML elements are involved...it's just buggy!! And a selection scenario...check out every page of over 30 websites I've done...they all do it. ....but I suppose it's not worth my time if it takes 2 months to get a response and just have someone say...it doesn't do it for us :(
Lisa - "I'd like to respond back with .... Ummm, it doesn't matter what types of HTML elements are involved...it's just buggy!! And a selection scenario...check out every page of over 30 websites I've done...they all do it. ....but I suppose it's not worth my time if it takes 2 months to get a response and just have someone say...it doesn't do it for us :(
Lisa"
Lisa, give them whatever feedback you can. It really doesn't happen for everyone, and doesn't happen consistently for some of us for whom it does happen in some web sites. It is a quite a mystery and any feedback and examples might help them. - This is definitely an ongoing issue with both EW1 and now EW2. What I did find that helped in EW1 was to turn off the "Visual Aids" option located in the status bar at the bottom of the page (double click on the word "On"). It helped in selecting text but alas, doesn't help in EW2. Hopefully this can help someone still using EW1.
What amazes me is the number of people posting here that seem to think this problem doesn't exist just because they have not experienced it! In the hundreds of web pages I've worked on I find it is most obvious when text is contained within borders or tables. Perhaps you pages don't use some of the features but it doesn't mean the problem isn't there and certainly that is not a valid complaint.
JJ
- Marked As Answer byAnna UllrichMSFT, ModeratorFriday, February 20, 2009 12:18 AM
- Have you tried giving containers some padding?
A few pixels will do it.
FrontPage MVP - I think you are confusing the fact that most people aren't having the same problem as a denial that the problem exists for some people. Random bugs are very hard to track down.The text selection bug has hit me on occasion but rarely. It has also hit me in Dreamweaver so I suspect it is either as Scott has speculated something to do with design view in web editors or simply one of those quirky things.
MS MVP Expression http://by-expression.com - I have both EW1 and EW2 on the same machine with Vista. EW2 is unusable for me for several reasons, not the least of which is the text selection bug which is not an issue with EW1. So, on the same machine EW1 has no text selection bug but EW2 is so bad in that regard it is all but unusable. I have never experienced this with Dreamweaver on this or any other machine. You can't just dismiss this serious EW bug as 'simply one of those quirky things'!